Many of you have small but capable home studios where you write, record, and mix everything yourself. Chances are you play one or two instruments (guitar, keys, vocals, etc) and then you fill in your arrangements with virtual instruments. No shame in that. But let’s take a moment today to talk about drums.
Drums Can Make Or Break Your Mix
No matter how great the rest of your tracks sound, if your drums sound weak or amateur, your entire mix will sound weak and amateur. It’s just how things go. But drums are hard to record well. Seriously they are. Even the top pros spend way more time on drums than almost anything else because it’s such a complex instrument to record and mix well, and the payoff of a great drum sound is worth the effort.
But many of you either don’t have a drumset, drummer, or the confidence to record one. So you turn to loops, virtual drummers like Strike or EZ Drummer, or simply banging out beats on your keyboard controller. If you don’t have access to anyone who can play drums, then using “fake drums” (as I will call it here in this article) is really your best bet. I’ve done this before. Nothing to feel bad about. But if fear of not getting a great “real drums” sound is what’s holding you back, then we need to address something.
Real Drums Do More Than You Know
Plain and simple, a decent recording of a real drummer playing a real drum kit can do WAY more for your mix than a perfectly polished virtual drummer can do. It’s hard to measure, but the intangible feel, vibe, and energy that is created in real life gives so much validity and nuance to your recordings. The trick is to get a balanced and punchy sound of course, but that’s not nearly as hard as you might think.
Did you know that you can get a quality drum sound using only one microphone? Yep, even if all you have is a simple $100 studio microphone you can capture an entire kit and add life to your mix. Granted it will be a mono drum sound and you can’t fix many timing issues after the fact, but man it can sound great.
The big idea here is, even though we tend to think that a perfect sample will sound more professional in the mix, the truth is your average listener (who will ultimately be the judge of how good your mix is) will likely “connect” with and jive to the feel of a real drum kit more. They won’t know or care that you didn’t record it in a professional studio with 20 microphones. They will care instead that it has energy, excitement, and it moves them musically.
What Have You Got To Lose?
At the end of the day, the art and craft of recording is truly one involving trial and error. If up until this point you’ve only been using loops and sampled drums, today should serve as motivation and permission for you to try recording a real drum kit on your next project. Don’t have one? Track down a drummer, have him/her learn your songs and then mic it up as best you can. You have nothing to lose, honestly.
Do you use real drums or fake drums in your recordings? What are your thoughts?
Comments
I love real drums whenever possible, and collaborating with another musician is just plain great. It really can’t be beat. We use 4 mics – 2 SM58s on snare/kick and 2 Behringer B1s for overheads into a Fast Track Ultra and PT M-Powered 9. Yeah, it’s like $800 in equipment (counting the software, interface, and mics), but it works out really well.
Still, the best $90 I *ever* spent on a plugin (not to mention, the *only* $90 I ever spent on plugins outside of what come with my DAW) is EZDrummer. It only comes with a handful of drums (basically 2 different kits, plus the “Cocktail” EZX) but they sound fantastic. It works in a pinch and it works really well.
I’ve moved from miking up a kit to using Addictive Drums and have found that I am getting a better sound with AD.
In the past I’d hire a rehearsal space and mike up a kit with a few mikes (kick, snare/hats and 2 overheads) and, although I’d sometimes get a good sound, most of the time it was pretty bad. Mind you, armed with the knowledge from the video in your last post, who knows how they might sound if I revisit them now.
Now I use Addictive Drums triggered by a “kit” comprised of a set of midi pads and a kick drum pad. I am a reasonably adept drummer but not a specialist and I’ve found that my drum tracks sound much better with this method. I can easily edit stray hits and even tweak velocities to make sure that everything feels right. I keep editing and quantising to a minimum so as to keep a live feel but they are useful tools if something goes awry.
As for mixing, although you can split out separate channels, I tend to mix Addictive Drums “in the box” and just treat the instrument’s stereo output channel as a drum bus. All eq, compression, etc are done in the box although I tend to avoid reverb, chosing to keep that in my DAW to try and get them to blend better.
All that being said, although think that the end result is much more professional sounding and less “made in my room” (although that can sound good too!) I still miss the sense of soundwaves hitting the microphone and still can’t quite capture that live feel and sound. I may try miking up my monitors….
I suppose it comes down to taste. After all, Prince’s drums sound fake as heck but the tunes still groove.
I’m a drummer/guitarist, with a very modest basement recording environment (cant really call it a studio) and for the longest time i lived in apartments where playing acoustic drums was impossible. As a result I learned about electronic drums, triggering, drum replacement, software drum programs, and midi, by necessity. I think now that I’ve had the opportunity to learn both sides of the coin, both are really essential if you want to record a variety of musical styles. I own Superior Drummer, and a 5 piece Tama set and use both depending on the material.
So, in a long winded way, I use both!
I use samples or fake drums from old drum machines to sequence drums and honestly it doesn’t matter. You can sequence your drums using fake drum as you call it and edit it for it to have the vibe of a real drummer and create the illusion with effects and so on so it’s up to producer at the end of the day. But for me being a drummer my self i’m working towards getting a kit in my studio just because of preference. Me being in the reggae industry where most of the earlier records were from drum machines as well as live drums it doesn’t really matter what matters is the end product.
I use ezdrummer for my own personal preproduction tracks I do, but I almost always record real kits for any music I put out. One thing about ezdrummer, addictive drums, and other virtual drummer plugins that I’d hate to put in my music is that it’s still so easy to tell where the drums came from.
Maybe it’s just me, but when I hear another guy put out a song with a virtual drummer plugin, I can immediately tell where it came from. Maybe it’s just me and my ear, but that’s what I kinda dislike about it. They have come a long way though.
In 2007 I was a guitarist looking to lay down chords to solo over so I got the Line 6 GuitarTracker/Riffworks setup. It was fun so I got a cheap mic started singing and recording songs, then a cheap bass, then started collaborating with my old bandmate in another city, swapping files back and forth. We did an album, self released it on iTunes through Tunecore. Then got a cheap set of drums and started sort of learning to play them. 4 years later I’m using using PT, a 5-mic set up through Fasttrack Ultra, and our stuff is sounding better and better and I’ve got 25 songs out there for the world to hear and even make a couple $ a month, all more than I would have ever thought possible in ’07. Disadvantages: working with a bad drummer (myself) is frustrating; recording them by yourself is awkward; so many recording options with mic placement, etc that it can be overwhelming; a song that used to take an afternoon now takes months; makes the neighbors miserable. Advantages: it sounds like drums and I know I played recorded edited (and edited and edited) and mixed them all myself. Isn’t always fun but it is rewarding. And of course the RR video tutorials have been a huge help!
Fantastic post, sir. I agree 100%
Of course, this is a subject that I care very deeply about. To me, it’s more than just using “real drums. ” Even EZ drummer and other drum samples are often ‘real’ drums. They were recorded on a real drum kit and embedded as samples. Obviously these tracks will “sound” great…
But nothing can or should ever compare to a real human drummer playing with emotion behind their instrument. Or ANY musician for that matter…Every aspect (Mic bleed, toms singing, cymbals ringing, room flutter, etc) is what makes recording drums completely irreplaceable…
I’m primarily a drummer, but due to limited space and neighbors, my kit has been stacked in my closet for years. I primarily use EZDrummer when i’m recording; i either program the beats or trigger them on my Roland kit. It’s nice to actually play the sounds myself, though nothing beats an acoustic kit with proper mics.
I agree. I always track real drums and enhance to taste depending on the genre. No way you can replace the hat and cymbal work of a real drummer. Enhancing the tones with plugs is necessary if you want a modern drum sound.
I’ve moved from miking up a kit to using Addictive Drums and have found that I am getting a better sound with AD.
In the past I’d hire a rehearsal space and mike up a kit with a few mikes (kick, snare/hats and 2 overheads) and, although I’d sometimes get a good sound, most of the time it was pretty bad. Mind you, armed with the knowledge from the video in your last post, who knows how they might sound if I revisit them now.
Now I use Addictive Drums triggered by a “kit” comprised of a set of midi pads and a kick drum pad. I am a reasonably adept drummer but not a specialist and I’ve found that my drum tracks sound much better with this method. I can easily edit stray hits and even tweak velocities to make sure that everything feels right. I keep editing and quantising to a minimum so as to keep a live feel but they are useful tools if something goes awry.
As for mixing, although you can split out separate channels, I tend to mix Addictive Drums “in the box” and just treat the instrument’s stereo output channel as a drum bus. All eq, compression, etc are done in the box although I tend to avoid reverb, chosing to keep that in my DAW to try and get them to blend better.
All that being said, although think that the end result is much more professional sounding and less “made in my room” (although that can sound good too!) I still miss the sense of soundwaves hitting the microphone and still can’t quite capture that live feel and sound. I may try miking up my monitors….
Great article. Excellent subject.
Yes, of course – in a perfect world, everyone would record a real drummer layin’ down phat beats on a real kit. In a perfect world, I’m sure most of us would rather track 2″ on an old Neve or SSL board with all the old tube outboard gear (…then edit/mix down in PT, of course – I may be old school, but I ain’t crazy;)) but for the most part, that’s just not the case to the average apartment jockey.
Right now, I’m using a combination of loops and BFD2 and just either bang it out on the keyboard (unfortunately, I “banged” a little too hard and broke middle F and F# keys. Wood keys. Weighted too. Awesome.) or I’ll do the never-really-sounds-quite- right “one MIDI note at a time” technique.
But I look at my BFD’d tracks more as a blueprint which will, eventually, be played/recorded by a real drummer – making sure they add in their own ideas and licks and fills and whatnot – because I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of cool stuff a real drummer would do instinctively.
I use drum loops (apple loops), big fish audio loops, and EZdrummer. I rely on them 100% Would love to have real drums – it’s just not my reality any time soon. So, I’ve spent much time learning to work with what I got, and it’s paying off. In the past, i spent years trying to program drums tracks on my keyboard…the trade off was that I wasn’t making music. I’m grateful for these “fake drums”
Graham, or anyone who cares to comment, I do have a question. I’ve been watching your jumpstart videos and wondered when recording/using MIDI drums (or any instrument) is it best to do the mixing on the MIDI tracks and then bounce as audio or bounce to audio prior to the mixing (volume, panning, eq, etc)? I’m kinda new when it comes to my knowledge of mixing, so I’d like to hear what the experienced folks think.
Graham funny you brought this up. I am working on a song that me and my buddy
recorded on a hard disk recorder a couple years ago. I used this old version as a guide track to setup an ezdrummer track. Then I recorded bass vocals and guitar. I made sure the bass lined up with the grid and got a rough mix on to a cd. I still like the original recording we did without drums better. When we recorded it we just through up a few dynamic mics and played through. later i added an egg shaker and an electric guitar part. Even though the new more polished recording with ezdrummer sounds great there is something about the
original recording we did that just sounds better to me.
I use “fake drum”, but not loops.
It’s ultrabeats on Logic Pro that I use currently.
Since I know a little bit to play drum, I just make it sound like it was during our jamming session and live with real drums. By ears.
It turns out that my listener thought it was a real drum. But it took a lot of more effort to create artificial sound than playing the actual drum.
Every midi notes, I will choose the “logical” velocity for it.
I use my own kit which I made in Native Instruments Kontakt, I sampled some real stuff and mixed it a little with samples and routed it to buses with room verbs and other stuff. However, I use this kit only to work on preproduction stuff, when we don’t need to waste our time to record a real drummer. So whether it’s demo or something temporary, it’s my “good to go kit”, I made it very neutral sounding so it can fit in better with different style of music.
But if it’s a final record for EP or full length album, I would always prefer to record some real drums. I found that every mixing engineer can make so called “fake drums” sound ok when it comes to snares and kicks, maybe toms too. But in my opinion what makes it real its a feel. Feel of live drummer hitting cymbals, room ambiance and all that stuff. I can later add some samples if I want to, but nobody can’t emulate that feel of real drummer in the studio.
I’m a drummer of 12 years and a professional songwriter. I use superior drummer 2.0 and I personally am confident that I get sounds and mixes out of that software that are better than most “real” drum sounds I hear. Let me back this up. Listen to this song and let me know what you think of the drums. http://soundcloud.com/thesamuelhanson/god-of-everything
Like most on here, reall drums just aren’t an option right now. I use EZ Drummer, and the results keep getting better each time! I’ve had musician friends ask “who played the drums on that track?” and I’ve had musician friends who know I use EZ Drummer and say “it’s obvious they’re not real…” So, I think it just depends on the preconceived notion of what you’re hearing. I’d love to have a real drum kit, but for now EZ Drummer’s doing just fine. Also, both Sixx A.M. records were recorded with drum software, and I’m guessing most can’t tell the difference…
I have a pretty complicated process that took me a while to develop, but works well for me. I use BFD (the first one), Logic’s Ultrabeat, plus a few of NI’s Abbey Road kits. I sequence the drums in whichever drum program I’m using, then bounce out each kit piece, along with the room mic, into an audio file. I then sweeten (compress, EQ, etc.) each audio file, as well as create different busses (compression, reverb, etc.), so I’m essentially mixing multi-drack drums, even though they came from a “fake” drum program. I love having the flexibility of getting my choice of great-sounding, -tuned- drum kits, most of which I could never afford (a vintage Lucite kit? yes, please!). While bleed and mic/pre choice are definitely things that add to the flavor of a drum mix, it’s nice to not have to spend hours gating each mic. I agree that a GOOD drummer adds so much to a song, but given the availability and reliability of most good drummers, I’m happy to replace them with “fake” drums anytime.
Also important to note, I start and end with the drums. My guide track is the first thing I lay down, then record the other parts. Just before I’m ready to mix, I’ll take the time to go through the MIDI drum track – which has usually evolved and been re-written several times up to this point – and adjust as many individual notes as I need to (for velocity, timing, etc.) to get the right “feel.” Sometimes this takes hours, but I’ve spent 8 hours miking a drum kit before, so in my mind, it’s a wash.
This probably won’t work for everyone, but if you’ve got the time, it’s a good way to get some pretty killer results. A drummer that I used to play out with asked me once – enviously, I think – who the drummer was on an EP I produced, which I took to mean that I’m moving in the right direction with this technique. Your mileage may vary.
Wow, interesting comments here. Some of you I agree with, most of you I don’t. Here’s what I think:
http://silverlakestudio.com/2011/12/05/real-drums-human-musicians-and-the-rest/
I agree with you Graham and Travis…nothing replaces the “swing” and feel of a flesh and blood recording on acoustic drums. That is my ultimate goal – to have the set-up room for a nice kit (I know – excuse). I have for now settled on a hybrid kit, pretty nice, actually. It started out as a Roland TD3, but I’ve replaced all rubber pads with mesh, including a good-size kick (with double pedal) and snare…I’ve added a real Zildjian A Custom 22″ Ping Ride, and A Custom Mastersound hats ’cause I hate hitting rubber cymbals (still do for 3 crashes). I mic the real cymbals with small diaphram Audix condensors (for recording). I trigger BFD2, specifically Andy Johns Classic Drums – great kits recorded by a legendary drum engineer. I play through a nice Simmons amp/sub on the floor right behind the kick, plus L+R Polk speakers on stands (aimed at my head) on either side of the amp, which is fed by line outs on my interface. All of my drum tracks are seperated in PT. The mics are live only when I record, of course, then I use headphones. There are trade-offs here. For the privilage of having multiple kits and set-ups available to me, recorded so well in the most primo of spaces with the best equipment, etc., and the endless ease of MIDI editing, I give up the 100% authenticity (articulations), feel, and “magic” of what a live kit in real time would produce. It’s a good compromise for now, but I do want that authenticity, and will have it eventually. The samples are REAL, and the kit reponds decently to my playing with low latency, but it isn’t perfect and never preferable to acoustic. My fave kit is my Bonham one…pieced together with the correct pieces he used most often, including an awesome 26 x 14 Ludwig bass drum – all recorded for BFD2 by the same engineer who recorded Bonzo on several Zep albums…it sounds so sweet when I play along to “Since I’ve Been Loving You” (soundcard audio mixed into my drum amp from my Makie mixer)…
Great post, great topic! I own all of your vids, Graham, and they continue to help me in ways beyond my capacity to type here (lol). Much respect to you as well, Travis – if only I had a smidge of your talent…take care all,
Scot
This is soooo subjective. Reminds me of the early debates over “real” (film) vs. “fake” (digital cameras) in the photography world. The debate’s basically over now…the film heads are in the corner muttering to themselves…”well I think…..” LOL
Once “real drums” are digitally recorded, digitally edited, pocketed, panned, processed by compression, EQ, gating, saturation, etc…etc. Then dithered, dathered and SRC’d and listened to through one of the range of playback devices..ad nauseum…what’s so real about them in the end!? They’ve gone the same road as the samples.
If we’re just talking about the subtle wrist movements of a drummer on a trap set vs, the same drummer on an e-kit with top shelf samples…the gap is growing narrower and narrower. IMHO
Peace
This article is a little bit to black or white for my taste. What are real drums and what are fake drums ? I recently did a song using midi files from the songwriters pack offered by toontrack. These are grooves played by a real drummer, not quantized with all the micro-timing and groove-feel that only a real drummer can offer. So what do you consider this to be ? real or fake?
in my opinion it is not mainly about the sound of the drums but rather about the feeling of the drummer. I had to replace a real drum set, that was recorded pretty badly with drumtracker and used Superior Drummer for sounds. The result was pretty good. Some of us can’t track drums in their little studio so i prefer getting a drummer to play the song either with an electronic kit or real drums and i will then use my Drum library for either the whole kit or as a mixture between recorded drums and Superior. I prefer a library that was recorded in the best studios with really good drumkits, tuned perfectly, miked up with the best mics placed by an excellent engineer instead of having to use the sound of a kit miked up badly, detuned and sounding cheap.
Superior Drummer has articulations galore that should suffice for most ot pop/rock recordings, the days of programming a drum computer with one sample per kit-piece are gone long time. Take a look at the Drumtracker video on the toontrack site where they replaced an entire kit played by a studio-pro with Superior Drummer. I think nobody can tell the difference between the recorded kit and the kit from Superior
check it out:
http://www.toontrack.com/tv.asp?channel=tutorials&sort=addeddate&way=DESC&item=87#3
If it sounds good use it. If you have a good drummer and the right equipment record him. If you want to use e-Drums with samples do that. If you don’t have a drummer, use a midi controller and samples. To each their own. I don’t think there should even be a debate about this because it’s up to the individual artist/artists to decide what they want to do and if they dig the sound they get in the end then right on. Travis hates “fake drums”, I don’t… so what.
Plus what Rod said is pretty accurate.
Rod, the topic of cameras vs drums isn’t a fair or even logical comparison. Humans are still behind the camera, doesn’t matter if it’s digital or film. A human is stilll looking through the camera and taking the picture… The point is that a human is playing the instruments. You’re comparing apples to oranges.
I’ve been stuck in the apartment thing for a while, and therefore can’t play my acoustics. I use superior 2.0 with a Roland td-20 for recording in the home. I agree that real drums are the foundation, but the difference is getting narrower. With a super low latency recorded midi performance, you are capturing the feel. However, the way I am able to react and “pull” sound expressively from an instrument is only about 90-95% there on the electronic side. Obviously, i play acoustics live, with a little 808 trigger to my left to add some thump though. Check my videos out at http://www.neilholloman.com/audiovideo/ Most of them were done with the superior 2.0 setup. The description will tell you which ones they are.
I just released an EP in which we mix roughly 25% electronic drums with 75% “real” drums (real samples from Superior Drummer). I have been blown away by the feel I have been able to get from SD2 and I would challenge any average music listener to differentiate between the “live” drums on our EP and an actual live drummer. Of course, many engineers and musicians might be able to tell the difference (barely), but we’re not making music for them, now are we?
By the way, thanks for your work. I got a lot of great, simple tricks from your 30 days to a better mix series. Bravo!
The big idea I wanted to push in this post was not that you can’t get a great sound with virtual drum plugins, but that you should try to record real drums.
Most people feel that they can’t get a great drum sound in a house or apartment, but the truth is you can! I do this all the time. No treatment, no acoustically designed space. Just a kit in a room. Even with one mic.
The point is, try it. You’d be surprised at how much it adds to your tracks.
That’s more of a comparison like recording to tape vs. digital. I think it depends what the genre of music you’re recording in the first place and what kind of feel you want for your tune. It’s hard to replicate the energy of a live drummer with plug-ins or drum triggers, but I think both are necessary. Compression can sometimes make this possible. This also becomes a tradeoff when you’re faced with a drummer with less than perfect “pocket-playing” ability, a poor drum recording environment, or even poor equipment. Samples and “fake drums” are perfect when you are dealing with overbearing bleed from cymbals or other instruments in the room. A human drummer will not be able to play PERFECTLY on top of a click track nor should you expect it. It all comes down to personal preference, but there is no real “right” or “wrong” answer here…especially since these drum programs are becoming extremely sophisticated…but you tell me if you can hear the difference when you listen to The Foo Fighters new album vs. most pop or rock records flying around these days. Recorded to tape and a live drummer…sounds extremely fat, punchy, and real!
I’m sort of playing the evil detractor here just because I like a lively…friendly debate. I think it can elevate our views. I love nicely recorded acoustic drums. Just the other day I was trying to create, with samples…something close to Manu Katche’s sound on Sting’s Soul Cages…:(..couldn’t get there. LOL
Travis..The analogy does work if you’ll note that I’m talking about a human drummer behind an e-kit and good samples..or at the very least…a skilled programmer. Stock grooves and beats can get tiresome and bland, that’s for sure.
Graham….bro, love the site, love the perspectives
Agreed, Rod. I have no problems with ‘fake’ drums. My point is whether or not an actual human drummer has the opportunity to create verses a non-drummer trying to pretend. It’s sort of like a guitar player playing bass.
“It’s sort of like a guitar player playing bass”
Ohhhooo! guilty as charged on that one!! LOL
Back in 2005, I went to a million dollar studio recorded an EP album with 3 songs using real drums and spent $ 2,000 on recording + mixing. The final product, I didn’t like the way drums sounded, in short. In 2007, I read in a book that I purchased about managing your own record label the author wrote ” drummers would hate me for saying this. If you can use a producer or learn and program your own drums using various software or programs out there, you can come up with a better sounding drum track than a real drummer would play …” I took it to heart, started learning and developing my own techniques. Today I’m very satisfied using “fake drums”. I would only use a real drummer in a commercial studio if I have money to blow up. Til then thank God for “Fake drums”. Don’t take me wrong, I love real drums and real drummers. I also love what I can bring out of those “fake drums” I don’t even see the difference. You can check out my “fake drums” from my newly released song and see for yourself. Just a short clip.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robereacare5
Much Luv
I think most on this thread don’t have a “fear” of recording a real kit. If we had the space, or could afford the equipment or studio time, we would probably prefer it. Even if some of us aren’t top quality engineers. Unfortunately, many don’t have this luxury. Plus, drum software has come a long way when it comes to sonic authenticity and is not as costly.
I understand where Travis is coming from though. Drums are his instrument and I’m sure he puts a lot of sweat and soul into them when he plays. That can’t be replicated. To have put so many hours into practicing and playing the real thing only to have some software come along that many home studios use would annoy me as well. It’s the way I feel when I see adverts for a virtual bass or electric guitar on KVR. I play both instruments and would never use these as a substitute. They don’t have the same feel to me. But I know a lot of ambient, techno, dance artists only play keyboards and may want to use a bass or guitar sample. So, to each there own I guess.
Truth of it is, it’s all about the songwriting. I can forgive a lot (cheap sounding drums, badly sampled guitars, tape hiss, etc.) if the songwriting is great. Sure I’d prefer everything to sound immaculate and I’ve heard a lot of recordings on different sites that sound pristine, polished, and ready for airplay. But I too often find that, behind this magnificent production, lies a weak song that no amount of chorus layering or loudness or real drums can hide. The Misfits were a great band that used “real” instruments, though it’d be hard to tell because the mixing and production is pretty bad. Yet I listen to them because, damn, that Glenn Danzig knew his way around a melody. For me, that’s what it comes down to.
I usually use my Alesis SR 16, sometimes just running a kick and adding other tracks tapped out in real time, which allows you you to take advantage of the touch sensitivity of the little drum pads.
If I record a pre-programmed drum track I clone it and treat it differently plug-in wise.
Recently I had the pleasure of trying out recording a drummer using the Glynn Johns, four mic method.
I don’t think being able to spot the difference between using drum loops, samples etc. and recording a real drummer is the point being made, especially seen as recently it has become easy to make samples sound like a recorded drummer.
The point being made is that with samples, you can make the song SOUND like it has a real drummer, but not FEEL like it. Theres a big difference between the 2: unless it’s plainly obvious that the track is using a “fake drummer”, then the people who are listening to the music in the background aren’t going to pay attention to it. But the people who listen to it a bit more carefully just won’t get the same amount of energy and vibe, 100% guaranteed. the FEEL of it isn’t something you can measure, or boost. It’s either their, or it isn’t.
If you recorded a drummer, and did everything it took to get the drum track to sound as good as it can get, then used samples and made them sound as good as they can get, then played each version of the song to someone, one after the other, there will be a massive difference. Spending time on getting the drums to SOUND real doesn’t automatically give them feel, and can in some ways focus too much on the mix rather than the music.
And their’s also an element of authenticity to recording your own drum tracks, and gives it a unique sound. It puts the drummers own stamp on the recording which can’t be explained, but you can just tell the difference. On top of that, it gives the drummer a better name for themselves. For instance, thousands of drummers have used triggers, especially in the death metal area, because it makes it easier to play. But the ones that are getting the most credit for their profession are the ones who aren’t using them. Even if you can’t tell the difference between one who does use triggers/samples and one who does, just by knowing that a drummer hasn’t used any of those gives off a vibe to the listener that the drummer is disciplined enough to play their parts accurately and precisely but still put in the emotion and the energy. Because at the end of the day, who’s better, the drummer who nailed his part or the drummer that used the “easy way out” of correcting his mistakes?
Thousands of drummers use triggers and samples because its “easy” to do and even make sound GOOD. But the handful that don’t are the ones that sound UNIQUE as well as good, and they’re the ones at the top of the list, because they’ve dedicated their time to their instrument, and now they’re the ones that don’t even have to work, and they can spend all their time doing what they love to do best, which is making music. Just something as simple as recording the drums “real” can move a drummer a lot higher up the list.
I’d like to throw a pertinent question into this debate…
1 has anyone heard or used mixosaurus ?
Because there’s drum samplers and then there’s mixosaurus..
And I’m a drummer !
R-E-A-L!
No disrespect to samples, but give me a real drummer every time! My drummer just happens to be my nephew
I’m not being biased (maybe a little!) but when I watch what he does with my music, he’ll be my drummer for as long as I’m able to use my God given talent to create music!
I use Steven Slate Drums with midi played by a real drummer as it is easy to achieve a reasonable drum sound. Also I am influenced by a UK band Anaal Nathrakh that use drum programming for recordings and oddly enough a live drummer for tours. With so many producers in metal and hardcore blending drum samples in with real recorded drums the sound people are hearing is largely trigger samples anyway. Recording real drums is a cool skill that helps with mixing the fake drums.
Being a drummer mysef, I ALWAYS use real drums. Even if the song calls for a ”machine-kind-a-sound” I usually dub a hi-hat, some shakers or some other hand-percussion, to add some live-feeling to the track.
I’ve got my own studio specialized in recording custom-made drum-tracks, and everything is set up, ready to go. Mics on all drums, bottom mic on snare, sub mic on kick, stereo room mics, stereo ambience mics, the works!
Just to give you guys the experience of having REAL drums on your song, I’LL RECORD DRUM TRACKS FOR YOUR FIRST SONG FOR FREE!!!!
Pleas go to my website http://www.thehittingroom.com or send me an email lars@thehittingroom.com.
You guys should check out the first two albums/recordings by Sixx A.M. It’s my understanding that the drums are live triggered, as-in performance captured but the sounds are samples are from James Michael’s huge (custom??)library. Also Motley Crue’s Saints of Los Angeles was recorded this way, Tommy Lee triggered the samples on a hybrid kit he and JM developed–which makes sense for a consistency in kick and snare sounds. And… the guitar amps are all sims, PodFarm and Eleven. Pretty impressive sounds. I have been studying these three recordings a lot since I learned how JM recorded them.
While I look forward to the opportunity to record “live” (I prefer the term “live” over “real” in this context) drums, I generally can’t have them in my space. I use several different plug-ins. I use Superior Drummer most often. I’ve got all the MIDI packs from Toontrack and the Groove Monkee Studio collection so that I’m armed with many grooves played by “real” drummers. This has already been mentioned by others in this thread, but that combination of a good instrument and a good groove is what we’re all after.
Ive used real drummers and real drums since the 80′s when my studio was a 16 track fostex on 1/2 tape.As much as I miss the great things that come from real drummers and real drums there are many things I dont miss.Microphone setups,tunning retunning and the mics always move from one session to the next.As Ive gotten older and short of time for all of the above.I love the fact that I can get tracks down when inspiration strikes and can add and tweek till Im happy.
dont get me wrong I wish I had a great drummer to be around at the drop of a dime to lay down tracks in a great room.not many have that luxury.I use EZ drummer,superior drummer,addictive drums and even kit core does a good job.
The biggest thing I miss is the way the song evolves when just jammimg the ideas.
But without those drummer software programs there would be alot of waisted time and waiting to do what is more important than drums …..the song.
I think there’s 2 different issues going on here:
1) Real Drummer v. Programmed Drums (Performance)
2) Real Drums v. Sampled Drums (Instrument)
1) In my opinion, it is very difficult to get that ‘professional’ sound by Programming drums. I use real drummers exclusively; I’d hire someone before trying to program it myself. I am not a drummer, but even if you have a real drummer sit down and program his drums, A) it takes forever, because you’re building a performance hit-by-hit, and B) it’ll never be that fluid, creative performance that he might have done in 5 minutes if he’d *played* it himself (even if it’s on electronic drum pads).
2) I still prefer a ‘real’ kit. But there is that hurdle of A) owning a drum set, B) getting it to sound great acoustically, and C) owning the equipment to mic it properly. I’ve conquered several of those, but the thorn in my side is that every drummer I work with has a crappy snare, try as I might to fix it. 70% of the time, I end up replacing the hits with a sample. In fact, worst case, I sampled all the shells – kick, snare, toms. Very difficult to sample cymbals; I’d hire a session drummer before using sampled cymbals.
Anyways, I just thought I’d put that out there.
Look, there aren’t any rules, if you like the sound you get from programmed drums for your current project, knock yourself out! Not sure why there is even a debate going on here. At the end of the day, some random guy on the internet saying programmed drums sound horrible is simply wrong. It’s all a matter of taste. Your make the music, you make the decisions. It’s all about learning what you like and making it your own.
I agree with Andrew,the one thing I forgot to mention in my last comment was I always use midi drum files.I am not a drummer and were never good at programming drums.At least with midi loops that have long measures maybe 4 to 8 sometimes and played by a real drummer so you get that performance and those little things that a drummer will naturally add and by working with midi,you dont like the groove that you thought you liked when you were building the song take it out and throw in another one to me thats the biggest advantage to midi drums.
Thats as a songwriter anyway…a real band is another animal all together.
When i started recording 25 years ago, it was all analog and recording real drums wit 8-10 mics where standard. Did it several times and it was always fun and a good practice in engineering as well. But that was then and this is now.
If i could still have a studio-pro drummer with a great and expensive (tuned) drumkit standing in an acoustically great sounding room miked up with great mics i would go for it. But these days most of the time i get the drum tracks already recorded sent to me online and i have no influence on the recording itself. I guess most of us are in this position and only a few chosen ones can still have the almost perfect circumstances i’ve mentioned before.
Recording mono-miked drums ? C’mon, this is a little too much retro for my taste, at least make it stereo. Why should i limit myself by recording a cheap drum-set in a boomy and echoing living room with not-so-ideal mics ? And then next we are editing, eq-ing. beat-detectiving, compressing and transient designing the hell out of that track so that it sounds more like we are used to, right ? I’d rather get a good drummer and a decent e-drum kit, then use Superior Drummer or some other great sounding library and get the best result out of the drummers performance. There is no substitute for a great drummer playing, but there is for bad drum sounds. I call this Drum-Reamping, just like with guitars. Is this considered “not worthy” for a “real” engineer? We are constantly trying to improve our mixes, getting the best sounds in every possible way with gear and software, why should we now compromise if we don’t have to? Again, in my opinion it is more about the human feel of a drummer then about the sound of his drumkit (and not every drummer owns a “real” drum kit these days). If you like to record real drums, go for it, great experience and you learn a lot. But if you are not satisfied with the sound, don’t just hold on to it because it’s cooler to have real drums in your track, try to make the best of it, either way you can.
Sometimes i get the impression that is has become a fashion to say “i’ve recorded real drums on this track like they did on the old classics”. That does not automatically make the drums sound better. Don’t get me wrong, i think limitations have their positive side as well, as also shown on the great “mixing with stock plugins” workshop Graham did. You have to make decisions, know your stuff and get it right from the start. Sometimes we get lost in all the possibilities of modern day recording, but at least i have the choice now if i’m not satisfied with a sound and i’m not stuck with it like we where back then. Those where great times, but i don’t wanna go back there (well, for most of the time;-))
At the end, we all know that this is again one of the exclusive engineers-only discussions like in other topics, because the listener will not hear a difference nor will he care. And not to offend any drummers (love and appreciate your work, really), but usually the people on the streets are not humming or whistling drum grooves (fake or real), right ?
Peace
Bertrand
This is really interesting stuff. When we released our first single, 100% homemade, we played everything except drums because we didn`t have a drummer, and my home studio could`t fit a kit. While working with the song, we used EZDrummer, and it was great for laying down the other instruments. But when we were going to pay 200$ to Abbey Road for mastering, we thought, why not pay less than 100$ for one of the many service that offer web cooperation for musicians. We went with Travis Whitmore (Hey Travis : ) and the drum tracks he made for us really brought the song together. It felt so much more alive.
Since then, we´ve found a drummer for our band, and now we use our rehearsal space to record one condenser mic, until we can get our hands on some proper drum mics.
This is our latest song, and it`s not finished yet. But we wanted to record something from rehearsal to work with.The drums are recorded with a 80$ mic covering the whole kit. Far from perfect, but it shows what you can do with one single affordable mic.
http://soundcloud.com/stiansylta/city-lights-demo
I can’t believe that no-one has mentioned ‘Jamstix’ – a truly amazing VST drummer that plays either it’s own samples, or those from AD, EZ-Drummer or SSD etc. It creates original, humanized drum beats in seconds – the best music software I have ever purchased.
I hear this all the time, and got a chance to sit down with someone who has owned the program for awhile, and was not impressed at all.
Yea, it was better than stagnate loops, but it impressed me about as much a MDrummer did….which was not that much…
I agree to an extent and i disagree to an extent. Fake drums dont sound EXACTLY like real drums because the ARE FAKE! Maybe in future software they’ll be able to go deeper into why real drums sound the way they do, and be then be able to mimic that exactly, but thats not happening now (although they are getting alot closer).
Being a drummer myself and a drum programmer, i feel that its very possible, however, to but alot of emotion into programming your drums. i dont have easy access to a drum set or to a good room, so real drums are not always easy to record. When it comes to programming drums, i use Superior Drummer and i am very particular about every drum hit. I dont just punch in rhythms and then quantize. I dive in and record hits at the velocities i would play naturally. i program the drums with dynamics and soul.
I dont think we should be so quick to brush off vst drums because you can really get them to sound great. Yea it takes a bit more time, and its never gonna be the same as the “real thing”, but if you put a little heart into it, it could sound pretty darn close.
I’m using an inexpensive Roland TD-3 kit and Superior Drummer 2.0 for my drum recordings. The samples are great and the Roland Kit allows me to have a real drummer play, for the “feel”. I can then quantize just certain parts of the performance if I need to and the overall sound is much better than programmed drums or loops. Not to mention the entire process is fast compared to using a piano roll or keyboard controller!
Hey folks, let’s not forget about Drumagog. Record real live drums, and then fold in samples to reinforce or replace the instrument sounds on what you captured. You get the timing, feel, and dynamics of a live performance plus the clarity of good samples. Best of both worlds? It does start with a real drum performance, though–not MIDI sequences or loops.
Even though I’m a guitar player, I’m really obsessed with drums. For my tracks, I used to use Battery or Halion samples that I made myself. But now, I use Battery or Studio drummer for preproduction and than record a real drummer for the final track. Even if I used to spend hours on getting the ultimate track using samples, it just doesn’t come close to the sound and feel of a real drummer playing on a good sounding kit. So to me, samples are great for preprod, but to bring your track to life, there’s just nothing like the real thing.
As Alan said, Drumagog can do wonders on a modestly recorded drum track. The only downside is that replacing samples takes times and is heavy on the CPU. But it surely is an alternative.
Nowadays, there are a drummers that offer real drum tracks online. It’s so much easier than finding a drummer, with a good drum, in a good room with good mics. Of course, it cost a little more, but once you’ll try it, you’ll never go back! I know I won’t.
I happen to use Ezdrummer more and I’ve even triggered sounds playing on a Yamaha DD-55. (Its an experience). If I would want to start using real drums but I’m recording with one mic mainly, would you recommend using the technique in your video about micing drums with one mic? or at least to mic it in stereo? I feel like people are too involved with being able to manipulate every piece of the drumset by using drum mics but I’m curious if I’m completely wrong and maybe I should be attempting to record drums more like that